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Hello,

I was running my NOISY G4 733MHZ 256MB of RAM running 10.3.9 and was tired of it and thought the Mac Mini running 10.4 would smoke it out of the box compared to the old G4 with it's faster G4 processor and all for $499, "What a bargain!"

Well to my surprise it's CRAWLING! I have mail, Yahoo Messenger and Safari open and just browsing can be fast until that hard drive or processing starts happening. Someone suggested turning off Spotlight. I turned it all off - and still there are serious hang ups.

So I put the question out to you all. What is the hang up here? I am beign suspicious of the:

Hard Disk: (40gb is too small anyway).
Should I go with an internal or external?
If internal can anyone recommend anything?
If external HD, USB 2.0 or Firewire? Will I notice a speed difference between the two?
Will there be any issues booting up from an external?
This week, BEST BUY has a Western Digital 120GB USB 2.0 External HD for $70 after rebates. Should I go for it?

RAM Memory:
512MB now. I was originally using 256 for simple office tasks and even did Photoshop work and Graphic design on my old G4/OS X mac.. So I'm thinking with the faster processor and double the RAM I shouldn't see an issue - OR SHOULD I?
Maybe the newer HD will solve my hang up issues in the first place?

Any suggestions?
Your thoughts very appreciated!

Thanks
b

I like to go to Apple store and right click on the applications folder in the dock and see how long it takes it to come up. I'll bet my iMac DV 400 mhz brings up its Apps folder's contents FASTER than some of the Mac Minis I've tried this on. Sorry I can be of no help, though.

More RAM would help.
Also, a clean install.

beats me, my 1.42 felt just as fast as my 1.5 G5. I have a gig of Ram, though I doubt it would make as much difference as you describe.

RAM

My B&W G3 1.1GHz with only 256MB of RAM keeps up really well with the G4 eMacs. I've used the minis and they do well.

No great suggestions for you I'm afraid. Do you have something gigantic running in the background?

---------
3GHz - The clock is STILL ticking Steve.

RAM

Not to put down the mini - but it is what it is...

First you're dealing with a 4200rpm notebook hard drive which makes a huge difference compared to a standard 3.5" 7200rpm drive that is in your 733. As for ram, you should be OK with 512MB but OS X loves ram so most say go with nothing less than 1GB. I second the clean install - it shouldn't feel that slow. It should be about the same as your 733 or just a touch faster.

Faster HD would help; minis ship w/5400RPM drives inside IIRC, the Apple Store only declares them to be Ultra ATA, no mention of rotational speed. Either put in a 7200RPM drive, or get a FireWire external drive; FW external is bootable, USB is not.

US$0.02 fee waived,

=DH
Donkey (Ye Olde Farte of ye Internette) Hotay is a Tilted Windmill® enterprise.
s/.NO@SPAM.BLOODY.VIKINGS./@/ for email

1gb of RAM

[www.datamem.com]

or

[dealram.com]

Crackin' the Mini case is a bitch until you get the hang of it.

Garrett
[www.nafzinger.com]

i think something is wrong with OS X on your mini then -- theres no reason for it to "crawl"

your mini is basically an ibook/powerbook without a screen -- where are the thousands of "my ibook is slow" rants?

of the two that i have seen and played with were very zippy -- one had 512 and the other had 1 gig of ram -- and they were running photoshop, entourage, illustrator and other bigger programs

replacing the minis internal drive is not easy -- you have to disassemble almost the whole thing -- running an external Firewire (better and faster than USB 2) and using it as your startup disk can make the mini faster -- have you seen the cases that look like the mini and have more USB/FW ports as well?

thats all moot -- start with a fresh install -- theres no reason for it to crawl

----
iPeace

My sister in-law's ride:

Not directly related to the mini, but I set up a G3 ibook that has a 4200 internal HD to boot off a 7200 HD in a firewire case, and it booted and ran noticably faster off the firewire drive. I didn't do any speed tests or benchmarks, but the difference was obvious. I did this right around when the mini was coming out, and I think barefeats or someone else actually tested this set up for the mini later (and confirmed the firewire drive was faster).

So an external HD is worth considering for the mini. I would get firewire though over USB2.

Donkey Hotay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Faster HD would help; minis ship w/5400RPM drives
> inside IIRC, the Apple Store only declares them to
> be Ultra ATA, no mention of rotational speed.


Minis use 4200rpm drives..

[www.barefeats.com]

QUOTE FROM BAREFEETS:

"The Mac mini's drive is similar to what you find in an iBook or PowerBook -- 4200rpm with sluggish average seek time and latency. This can make the Mac mini feel more sluggish than the clock speed would imply -- especially if you are running with less than 1GB of memory."





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 09/29/05 10:48AM by Buckeye_Sean.

Be careful how much money you put into the mini at this point. By the time you add hd and lots-o-ram, you may be better off getting something with a regular sized hd (i.e. eMac or low end iMac) and returning the Mini if you can.

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RAM and a FW HD.

Those who've replaced their iB HDs (4200rpm) with 5400rpm have reported a noticeable improvement in performance.

And going from 512MB to 1G will certainly improve things.

For the money, I bet a FW HD would be the best first step.

.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.

By the time you add hd and lots-o-ram, you may be better off getting something with a regular sized hd (i.e. eMac or low end iMac) and returning the Mini if you can.

Except that *any*thing he gets with a regular sized HD will be *much* larger than a mini with a FW HD, and will still benefit from lots-o-ram, just as the mini will.

And for some people adding a FW to any computer might be something they'd do anyway.

A new mini, with new RAM, with a new faster HD would still be cheaper than any new desktop solution, though a refurb could be in the ball park.

The swing vote (!) would be whether or not size matters.

.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.

Spot-on RAMd®d

$729 eMac 1.42/combo refurb
$499 Mini (speed?), $100 fw drive (80gb or so), $100 ram or so...

Desk space is valuable realestate.

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blusubaru Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spot-on RAMd®d
>
> $729 eMac 1.42/combo refurb
> $499 Mini (speed?), $100 fw drive (80gb or so),
> $100 ram or so...
>
+ Monitor + KB + mouse = +??$


> Desk space is valuable realestate.
>
No argument there.

As I said before, the mini is a hamster. It is not for someone that does hardcore work of any type. Do not buy it if you are not satisfied with the mini exactly as it comes from Apple.

'Just add a fast hard drive and a gig of ram and you have a decent computer'

I think 1 GB of Ram is the best investment. I use a 500 TiBook with 768 of RAM and a Slow 4200 20GB hard drive with Tiger and while it s speed demon, it is quite acceptable. Granted I would not be using it for PhotoShop or InDesign but I don't see the OS as a real slo down. Maybe those 256MB of RAM make a big difference. My daughter has a Mini and it seems fine with 1 GIG of RAM.

Leave the gun, get the RAM. I have a 1.42ghz Mac Mini that I just bought (512MB ram), and it's seems much slower than the comparable 1.25ghz iBook G4 that I have w/ 512MB of RAM. Granted the Mini is attached to a Cinema Display, so it's GPU is working much harder than the iBook which is running the 12" laptop display.

But adding RAM will definitely help. Case in point - my 1.5ghz Powerbook G4 17" runs like crap with the stock 512MB. Bringing it to 1GB of RAM really improved things. Less spinning beach balls, quicker app launches, etc.

The other suggestions about using a Firewire HD to boot from would also help. Spacious 7200RPM drives are cheap, and you can get a FW HD case for $20-$30.

Well my bet would be that you need to do an erase and install of the OS again. But I do have one suggestion for you to try and get a clear handle on the problem. Download and install MenuMeter from versiontracker.com, and turn on the memory and processor usage menues. Then use the Mini normally and see what kind of CPU usage percentages and percentage memory/virtual memory you are getting. If you are running out of ram and getting into heavy VM usage, then upgrade to 1 gig before you buy a faster HD. I have used two 1.2 Ghz 1 GB ram Mini and they have always impressed me quick enough for everything but heavy duty work.

Install MenuMeter and post back with the results.

Well I find my DP G5 sorta slow for my tastes-simple things like right-clicking on an icon and pulling up which program to open with are annoyingly sluggish. So I can't imagine using a mini with 256MB or even 512. I thought the HDs are hard to swap but definitely get a 7200 RPM one, although the idea of booting off an external drive makes more sense. Max out the RAM which should help some. I don't know that a re-install will matter. Really, the mini is just plain slow. 1.25 Ghz G4s were considered slow 3 years ago. Why the mini is not $299 or $199 is beyond me. People should be complaining about the slow iBooks too and I'm surprised they don't.

"...can be fast until that hard drive or processing starts happening"

I hope you've gone to the Energy Saver pane of System Preferences and unchecked "Put the hard drive(s) to sleep when possible".

GuidingByte Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think 1 GB of Ram is the best investment. I use
> a 500 TiBook with 768 of RAM and a Slow 4200 20GB
> hard drive with Tiger and while it s speed demon,
> it is quite acceptable. Granted I would not be
> using it for PhotoShop or InDesign but I don't see
> the OS as a real slo down. Maybe those 256MB of
> RAM make a big difference. My daughter has a Mini
> and it seems fine with 1 GIG of RAM.


Hey, we used to do photoshop work on a 68K machine and we liked it.

Ok. just to clarify...

That the Mac Mini isn't at a crawl constantly..
It's only periodically. I will hear the drive trying to do something. Virutual Memory or as if the hard drive is spooling something. Maybe making cache files or something, it is processing or doing something while I'm just browsing and checking email.

I'm beginning to think it's that slow 4500 RPM drive. Memory shouldn't be running out in this case.

So is it IMPOSSIBLE to BOOT from a USB 2.0 External Hard drive?

So I must use a FIREWIRE drive? Does anyone know if the firewire on the Mac Mini is 800 or 400?

>Posted by: Don Andrachuk (IP Logged)
>Date: September 29, 2005 04:19PM

>I hope you've gone to the Energy Saver pane of System Preferences and unchecked
>"Put the hard drive(s) to sleep when possible".

Ok, now this "Put the hard drive to sleep when possible" was ON.. I just turned it off and will see if I experience a slow down like before. Thanks for the tip...

I dont' think I need to Max out the RAM for such simple photoshop and design work. Actually I like to stretch things to the max at times and do some intense photoshop work on a minimal machine and have even used a G3 iBook at times so I am expecting that the Mac Mini should be up to the challenge. I honestly am beginning to feel it is Hard Drive related. I don't mind swapping it internally but it sure would be an easy fix with an external. As some have brought up, I'm trying to avoid the cost as much as possible without going into a G5 refurb price range. The External Firewire HDs are more expensive then the External USB 2.0 HDs... If I could boot from a USB 2.0 it would be grand!

Thanks for the input thus far!

:)
b

My mini has Firewire 400... so I imagine yours is too.

No, it is not possible to boot from a USB 2.0 drive. Tried it, no dice (sigh). (Using that drive as a backup now...)

Did you say Photoshop? If you don't want to put in 1GB then you've got no business complaining. :)

So here's the deal: a month ago I bought a 1.42Ghz mini (with 512MB) and thought I'd see how it ran before doing something about its RAM and disk deficiencies. After a week I thought the disk was the weakest part but it was pretty obvious it needed more RAM regardless of the disk. I bought a 1GB 2.5 CAS latency module and after much swearing (because none of the postings I found on how to open the case mentioned the required trick to it) got it installed. Now here's my point: it definitely seemed faster booting and launching the first few apps (i.e. way before it'd used up 500MB of memory) than before. Sort of made me wish I'd of measured it with the stock RAM. The stock memory was CAS latency 3. I think it's worth getting 1GB and making sure it's CAS latency 2.5.

It's useable now, and I haven't run out of memory since, but I finally decided to get an external Firewire drive anyway. (I got a miniMate, 'cause it has best case design -- it's aluminum made just like the mini -- and uses an Initio chipset). For a little more than $100 I deserve it. :) If I had to choose between the memory and the disk though (which are very close in price), I'd definitely go with the memory.

As for whether your drive speed is 4200 or 5400, it depends. Reports dating back to the first few days after the mini was released indicated some $500 models had 5400 rpm drives. What's the model number of your drive?

Lazy

P.S. It's very unlikely that reinstalling would do anything at all to make it faster.

P.P.S. The trick to opening the case is to angle the putty knife inward when you feel it come to a solid stop after going in about an inch. There is a ledge there you need to get past. Once past the ledge you need to push down about another 3/4 inch and then start prying. I also put a bevel on the knife, which certainly helped, but if you can get the knife in between the (close tolerance fitting) plastic and metal I guess you don't really need a bevel.

thedragonb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok. just to clarify...
>
> That the Mac Mini isn't at a crawl constantly..
> It's only periodically. I will hear the drive
> trying to do something. Virutual Memory or as if
> the hard drive is spooling something. Maybe making
> cache files or something, it is processing or
> doing something while I'm just browsing and
> checking email.
>
> I'm beginning to think it's that slow 4500 RPM
> drive. Memory shouldn't be running out in this
> case.

Think about what you wrote. "Virutual Memory [sic] or as if the hard drive is spooling something. Maybe making cache files or something..." You have just described an insufficient RAM situation. Hard disk speed doesn't matter at all in that case. If you hear your hard drive spinning a lot and you're waiting for a process to complete, then you don't have enough RAM to keep the data in memory. More RAM is the only solution to this problem.

When your computer appears slow and it's not a messed up OS issue (did you have Tiger on your old Mac? Why do you assume memory shouldn't be running out?)...add...RAM...first. It's widely agreed that the most economical and best bang-for-the-buck improvement for any computer these days is adding RAM, followed by a faster hard drive, and finally a CPU upgrade. Just ask OWC Larry, he'll say the same thing. Certainly RAM is cheap enough to be top of your list for upgrades. If you get an external Firewire case and drive (which I encourage, by the way, ’cause they're great for backups), you'll just sit around waiting for IT to spin up and finish, just as you do now, unless you add RAM as well.

Also remember that Photoshop uses 3 times the file's memory for inrenal processing, so it's pretty easy to start running out of RAM and hitting that hard drive.