Mac Discussion

I helped some friends who bought a new iMac 2G duo 2. Real nice machine! But only 2 usb ports on the back... I plugged my pen drive into the keyboard and it said "not enough USB power" I had to plug it into the back. I did the same with their Sony digital camera and got the same results. What a pain - unplug the printer so you can use another usb device?

Everyone else have this problem too?

Use a powered USB hub.

LarryH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I helped some friends who bought a new iMac 2G duo
> 2. Real nice machine! But only 2 usb ports on the
> back... I plugged my pen drive into the keyboard
> and it said "not enough USB power" I had to plug
> it into the back. I did the same with their Sony
> digital camera and got the same results. What a
> pain - unplug the printer so you can use another
> usb device?
>
> Everyone else have this problem too?

That's why teh after market sells USB 2.0 hubs...

after my MIL (R.I.P.) and her hubby got a G5 iMac a while back, to take over for the G3'ed 7100 I had set up at their place, a definite lack of ports was noticable (as was the miniscule 256MB of OEM RAM...), so after popping for a GB of new RAM, I got them an IOGEAR USB/FW powered hub to handle the port deficiency. the model GUH420 lists for $40, but I found it on sale for $24, and it just worked fabulously, so fabulously, that I went out and bought another one for Baby Buzz's original eMac (which was replaced by a newer model eMac while keeping the IOGEAR powered hub). great product, has 1 set of front mounted ports that make flash memory drives, and other use and go devices a pleasure to work with. kinda wish I had another one, or two, to replace the D-Link combo hubs I use on the workstations around here, though for flash device ease of use, I leave a USB extension cord plugged in. so, like everyone else says, get a good powered USB hub for your friends...

The keyboard has an unpowered hub built into it. High-draw devices like bus-powered microdrives and devices with long cables like printers don't always work on unpowered hubs. Digital camera manufacturers usually suggest using a direct connection or a powered USB hub in the manual.

You will get adequate power out of the USB bus by using the USB ports on the computer rather than using the hub on the keyboard. Or -- as was suggested -- buy a powered hub.

The unpowered ports on Mac keyboards are still good for lots of things... a mouse, a USB audio adapter, a self-powered drive, a low-power flash drive... and if you wanted to do so, you could connect a powered hub to the keyboard to add other devices... although that would not be aesthetically pleasing and the cabling could get messy.

LarryH Wrote:
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> Everyone else have this problem too?

Yeah, the keyboard ports aren't powered and are only really good for a mouse or something similar.

Some pen drives use more powerr than others. I had the same problem, so I bought another pen drive and it works fine in the keyboard.

be thankful you don't have a PowerBook. My wife's 15" PowerBook doesn't supply enough power to the USB ports to power a 2.5" external USB drive. My old iBook and my new Macbook can run it fine. We had to buy a powered hub so she can use it... not the best solution for a mobile computer.

My iMac Core 2 Duo has 3 USB ports. One is used up for the keyboard, one for the printer and one with an extender cable so I can connect a pen drive or whatever without having to go to the back of the machine. The ports on the keyboard are USB 1.1, that makes them much slower so even if it could power up a pen drive or camera, transfer rates would be excruciating. If your video camera has a firewire port you can connect it using that port, thus freeing up another port.

Armando

rz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> be thankful you don't have a PowerBook. My wife's
> 15" PowerBook doesn't supply enough power to the
> USB ports to power a 2.5" external USB drive. My
> old iBook and my new Macbook can run it fine. We
> had to buy a powered hub so she can use it... not
> the best solution for a mobile computer.


Many, if not most, PC and Mac laptops do not supply enough power from their USB ports to power bus driven external drives. That's why you always want to buy 2.5" hard drive cases with Firewire ports. Firewire ports always supply enough power for those bus powered drives.

> Firewire ports always supply enough power for those bus powered drives.

No, they don't. Laptop FireWire ports are notoriously underpowered and 4-pin FW ports do not carry significant power.

For those reasons, many 2.5-inch FireWire drives come with a supplemental power adapter that draws power from a USB port.

I disagree with the "notoriously" adjective.

Of all the folks in my MUG and other Mac users I know personally, none of them have ever had a problem powering a FW drive from a Mac 'Book.

The only power adapters I've seen for 2.5" HDs are actual AC-DC bricks, or the 2 USB > 1 USB port Y-adapter. These don't supplement the FW power.

That's just my experience though.

There's almost always an exception to the rule, but I'll take FW over USB, as long as there is a choice.

.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.

as I said though, both my iBook and Macbook had no problems with the external 2.5". Just the Powerbook. And I've seen other people on this and another forum (not to be named here) that have had similar problems with their Powerbooks. The price of 2.5" firewire enclosures are pretty high still, and finding an external 2.5 firewire with a drive already in it is pretty difficult.

This 2.5" FW/USB enclosure works well for me:

[www.newegg.com]

One of the 2 USB ports on my macbook pro duo 2 would power up an external 120GB 2.5" drive, but the other USB port would not. (Wolverine Hard Drive).

by definition, 4-pin FW is not powered, ne?

[pinouts.ws]

MacMagus Wrote:
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> > Firewire ports always supply enough power for
> those bus powered drives.
>
> No, they don't. Laptop FireWire ports are
> notoriously underpowered and 4-pin FW ports do not
> carry significant power.
>
> For those reasons, many 2.5-inch FireWire drives
> come with a supplemental power adapter that draws
> power from a USB port.



Complete nonsense. I've had bus powered firewire drives of all sorts over the years and none didn't mount in a flash from the bus alone. Now USB drives are another story. I just decided to get another portable and figured maybe I'd do better pricewise than the OWC ones I favor. No portable FW locally, So I went through most of the USB ones at the local CC (didn't want the pain of shipping returns). None (WD, Seagate, etc, etc) would power from a single port on any machine I've got (including G4 desktop). All would require getting a powered hub solely for this purpose, because though the laptops had a port available, most don't have two. And the Y cable is only for extra USB power when using USB. Your second statement is simply erroneous. As is your first, since, as noted, a 4 pin FW port port means it doesn't carry power. That's the opposite of bus power. All bus powerable FW drives are 6 pin, and can be powered by nearly any FW computer. For example, I regularly put such drives on my wife's G3 FW iBook 500, no problem. But it wouldn't power any of the USB drives I tried. Sure I could have pulled out all her peripherals from the powered hub and used the Y cord, but that sure pales in the fast and convenient department.


And lets not even go to what happens when the Y cord doesn't get put in the bag with the drive before you leave. You be dead.

> Complete nonsense. I've had bus powered firewire drives of
> all sorts over the years and none didn't mount in a flash
> from the bus alone.

May I draw your attention to JEBB's link... note the extra USB cable for supplemental power. Please illuminate us all: Why would they include it if it would never be needed?


> Your second statement is simply erroneous. As is your
> first, since, as noted, a 4 pin FW port port means it
> doesn't carry power.

What I wrote is perfectly accurate. How do you think information gets carried across the cable? On the back of a camel? There's electrons flowing, just not over a dedicated power wire. I'm not going to lie and say there's no power at all on a 4-pin FireWire cable just to appease the occasional ignorant fool.

MacMagus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Complete nonsense. I've had bus powered
> firewire drives of
> > all sorts over the years and none didn't
> mount in a flash
> > from the bus alone.
>
> May I draw your attention to JEBB's link... note
> the extra USB cable for supplemental power. Please
> illuminate us all: Why would they include it if it
> would never be needed?


The Y cable is found on pretty much all USB bus power drives these days, because vendors were responding to users not being able to power from a single USB port, as it is implied they will (Look on most boxes for these units. Most that require the use of the Y cable don't alert the buyer to the fact that they might need both ports or an adapter). The Y USB cable has zero to do with supplying supplemental power to FW bus drives as you state. I've never even heard of that before. In fact read the literature for combo drives. They make it clear that the extra USB power is for USB. Show us one that says it's for extra Firewire power.


> > Your second statement is simply erroneous. As
> is your
> > first, since, as noted, a 4 pin FW port port
> means it
> > doesn't carry power.
>
> What I wrote is perfectly accurate. How do you
> think information gets carried across the cable?
> On the back of a camel? There's electrons flowing,
> just not over a dedicated power wire. I'm not
> going to lie and say there's no power at all on a
> 4-pin FireWire cable just to appease the
> occasional ignorant fool.


There is no bus power at all on a four pin Firewire cable. No flame, but taken a sentence at a time what you wrote is 75% inaccurate. This is important misinformation.

My brother got one of those 2.5" Western Digital Black 80GB hard drives and was using it happily with his 12" iBook. He brought it to my house and it wouldn't work on my AlBook 15". He tried it on my mom's eMac, still no love.

He then took it home and it worked fine again. Not enough power through USB.


With 2.5" FW drives I have never had a problem with power. Go figure. Good luck and take it easy people. :D

> Show us one that says it's for extra Firewire power.

Why would it say that when the USB power adapter is for supplemental power whenever it's needed? I'm not going hunting all over the 'net on the off-chance that a vendor makes a redundant note about the possible uses of a supplemental power supply.

I work with insanely compulsive engineers every day and not even one of those nuts would go that far just to feed a random troll.



> No flame, but taken a sentence at a time what you wrote is 75% inaccurate.

Only to someone who is looking for a particular inference before he reads it.

MacMagus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Firewire ports always supply enough power for
> those bus powered drives.
>
> No, they don't. Laptop FireWire ports are
> notoriously underpowered and 4-pin FW ports do not
> carry significant power.


4 pin FW ports don't pass ANY bus power. Data. No power. If that's what you're calling "underpowered" it's that way by design. You're not supposed to be able to power anything from a 4 pin FW port.


> For those reasons, many 2.5-inch FireWire drives
> come with a supplemental power adapter that draws
> power from a USB port.


No 2.5 drives with only FW ports come with the Y USB cable. It's not feeding a troll. You're making a wrong claim you can't substantiate.

I have 10 portable 2.5 drives here (OWC, WD, Seagate, EZQuest) and the only ones that ship with a USB Y cable are ones with a USB port. Because they're likely to need it. Guarenteed to need it if you take it random computers. Firewire (6 pin) is way more likely to not need supplemental power, and if so use the wall wart that comes with it for that reason, which I've never needed on any drive or random computer.


There have been a very few models with disappointing juice coming from the FW port. It's USB that's "notoriously" underpowered.

> If that's what you're calling "underpowered"...

You've mis-read.

I wrote that 4-pin FW ports do not carry "significant power."

There's a difference.


> the only ones that ship with a USB Y cable are ones with a USB port.

Your statement is imprecise and misconstructed and your evidence does not support your conclusion.

Further, your conclusion doesn't take into account the Sarotech Cutie FireWire cases that I have in my possession, which take supplemental power from the USB bus.



> You're making a wrong claim you can't substantiate.

I disagree. But if you feel that "substantiation" is necessary, go ahead and substantiate your contrary claims.

You can start by demonstrating that data magically travels across FireWire cables without power.

MacMagus Wrote:

> You can start by demonstrating that data magically
> travels across FireWire cables without power.



It is, in fact, true that data magically travels through a 4 pin FW cable without bus power.


'Bus power' is the power used to power the hardware. A 'data stream' is not "power" and doesn't necessarily carry any at all.

If you're talking about the power of electrons, the power of positive thinking or the greater power, then yes, these all go through every cable in the house.




S.

I never said that 4-pin cables carried "bus power."

Apparently, you are arguing with a ghost.



> 'Bus power' is the power used to power the hardware.

"Bus power" does not mean that at all. The phrase commonly refers to either power from or available to a bus. It could as easily refer to a data-connection as to a dedicated power-circuit.

You appear to be trying to say that bus-powered FireWire devices do not ever need additional power sources beyond that provided by their connection to a host. That's a more accurate way of phrasing it, but it's still wrong.

Bus powered devices often need supplemental power sources due to inadequate power supplied by the host. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.

You should learn to write with greater precision.

Maybe when you've gotten beyond grade school, one of your Jr. High teachers will help you with that.

Eventually, someone might teach you something about computers, too.

Wow. I'm merely saying that your statement "Laptop FireWire ports are notoriously underpowered" is still waiting to be illustrated. I've been using bus powered professional recording gear and portable FW drives for as long as they've been out with nearly every Apple laptop and many PC laptops and have opted for supplemental power very rarely (only when a PC had a 4 pin). So which are the "notoriously" underpowered ones? Is it a big secret?

The statement:

"4-pin FW ports do not carry significant power. For those reasons, many 2.5-inch FireWire drives come with a supplemental power adapter that draws power from a USB port"

makes no sense because if you're looking at a 4 pin port, you're looking at a port THAT WILL NOT SEND OR TAKE BUS POWER. It's not supposed to. For the last time... 4 PIN FW TRANSMITS NO ELECTRICAL POWER. Zilch. Not "not significant". None. That means if you have a 4 pin port you're powering up your device from another source, not the FW cable, BY DESIGN. That's like saying those slippers are terrible because you can't rollerskate in them.

"Bus powered devices often need supplemental power sources due to inadequate power supplied by the host. You have provided no evidence to the contrary. "


I never said they don't ever. I dispute that bus powered FW devices "often need supplemental power sources due to inadequate power supplied by the host" because that's not been my experience. You need to substantiate the claim, I don't need to substantiate its fallacy. Please give details of your "notorious" issue. Otherwise accept that we don't accept it.

I have no idea why this gets you so upset. Just illustrate your statement and stop making it a personal attack. What's up with that?

rz Wrote:
>The price
> of 2.5" firewire enclosures are pretty high still,
> and finding an external 2.5 firewire with a drive
> already in it is pretty difficult.


rz,

Nah, you just gotta go where they are : ) We've pretty much bought these for this purpose for the past while, because we need to stick with Oxford chips and these are so rock solid there's no reason to mess with flakier cheaper options.

[eshop.macsales.com]


These don't come with a dual USB power cable. Messing with those negates whatever convenience one is paying for with a 2.5 portable. Never fails to mount immediately from either port with a single cable on anything we need to take it to. There are identical looking enclosures elsewhere, but OWC is the only place where you know exactly what you're getting, bridge chip to mechanism.

S



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 01/24/07 09:58PM by Spiggy.

> The statement:
>
>
> "4-pin FW ports do not carry significant power. For those
> reasons, many 2.5-inch FireWire drives come with a
> supplemental power adapter that draws power from a USB port"
>
>
> makes no sense because...

1) You're inferring things that are in no way implied by the statement and 2) It makes less sense than it might because you've deliberately truncated the statement to make it appear less accurate.



> For the last time... 4 PIN FW TRANSMITS NO ELECTRICAL POWER.

I hope for your sake that it's the last time. You're embarrassing yourself.

I suggest that you use a multimeter and measure the voltage available from a 4-pin FW cable while it's connected to one of those "no bus power" FireWire ports.

I'm guessing that it'll rock your world.



> I dispute that bus powered FW devices "often need
> supplemental power sources due to inadequate power
> supplied by the host" because that's not been my experience.

Then get more experience.



> Just illustrate your statement and stop making it a personal attack.

You lack the language skills of an average adult and your ideas about electronics are on par with a typical 11 year old kid.

If you're offended by that observation, don't whine to me. Improve yourself.

You're the one alleging "facts" in defiance of physics, not me. I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate that data moves across a FireWire cable without power.



> Otherwise accept that we don't accept it.

Who is "we" ...? I didn't realize that you were schizoid. Perhaps your doctor needs to up your meds.

One last looks at the facts. Here's what the1394 Trade Association (http://www.1394ta.org) says about the 4 pin FW:

"It is smaller than the standard 1394 connector and has only the data signaling pairs (no power conductors). The 4-pin 1394 connector is a part of the 1394 standard intended primarily for battery-powered devices."


No power conductors means no electric power. Nada. Data only. Concise as I can put it.


The original 6 pin spec is for 40 volts at 1.5 amps. 60 watts. That's a good amount of electricity. Model specs vary but not by a significant amount. (One Powerbook model from a few years ago was actually less but not by so much it wouldn't run my OWC drives. It was underpowered for my FW powered recording gear and I remedied that in a day.) I've never come across any other 6 pin port that put out notoriously less, and I've got all the meters. Please tell me which are, and also which 4 pin ports send out electric power.

Otherwise....



This is silly. I won't feed this and keep torturing the forum. Over and out.

Oh, this is annoying...


My 2.5" USB/FW case that worked fine with my Pismo and my AlBook won't spin up via 6-pin buss power my old Toshiba 5400 RPM 60GB drive. How annoying. Either need the external power adapter or I'll just do things the old fashioned way... I'll get a hammer. (jk, I'll use FW Target mode).


Take it easy, all.